Episode 9: Tom & Neil Walker

[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome. Bieng Benidos and thanks for joining us on the talking 21 podcast, the official podcast dedicated to the extraordinary life and legacy of the legendary 21 Roberto Clemente Walker. Today we have for the very first time on our podcast, not one, but two guests. Both know the game of baseball quite well because one actually played six seasons from 1972 to 1977, while the other was drafted by the Pittsburgh Pirates in 2004 and is still playing and currently a free agent. Not only were they both first round draft picks, they are actually father and son. Welcome to the podcast, Tom and Neil Walker. But there are also a number of interesting similarities that for 48 years their lives have been intertwined with the late puerto rican baseball player named Roberto Clemente Walker. Firstly, there's the name Walker, which was also Clemente's mom's maiden name. And although family and friends still call our guest Tom, his first name is actually Robert, like Clemente, who was also claimed in the rule five draft, the pirate scrap Clemente, who was originally signed by the Dodgers in 1954, while the Expos claimed Tom in 1971, or should I say his full name for our podcast listeners, Rovelto Thomas Walker. The stories you're about to hear are truly unbelievable. On the other hand, his son Neil will also share some fascinating moments that occurred throughout his phenomenal baseball career. That he will be the first to tell our listeners was no coincidence, simply the truth and cannot be explained. And finally, I'm super excited because as I was preparing for this podcast, I immediately thought about that heartfelt baseball movie scene in Field of dreams during his teenage years. I can only imagine when a young Neil Walker picked up a baseball. And way before he was drafted, there was a special moment in a backyard or on a ball field where he would say to his beloved father, Tom, hey, dad, you want to have a catch? Well, on behalf of the talking 21 crew, a sincere welcome to the Walker family and thanks for joining us for episode nine. We're really, truly excited to have these two guests here, a father and son on our pod to share their baseball experiences with our listeners. So, Tom, the question goes to you first. You may be one of the few families with someone who played baseball or a particular sport in high school, college. Your daughter Carrie obviously had a stellar career, basketball career at Wagner College. Matthew, your son was drafted by the Tigers and played a few years in the minors. Sean, your other son played baseball at George Mason. Your own time in the Puerto rican Winter leagues, certainly you and Neil in the major leagues, and even to this day, which I found quite fascinating when I was doing my own research is that your son in law, Donnie Thomas Kelly, is the bench coach currently with the Pittsburgh Pirates. So this is an unbelievable family tree for the Walker family. So my question to you is, do you credit your own parents for introducing the game of baseball? [00:03:49] Speaker B: Who I credit and what I credit and how I credit. I was born and raised in Tampa, Florida, which you could play baseball all year round, and a lot of kids did. Fortunately for me, I was surrounded by some very competitive young men my age, kind of guys. One was named Steve Garvey, and he and I went to junior high together and then high school together, and then we went down the road, but it became very competitive. Of course, I wasn't a hitter, never claimed to be. Let's get that squared away. But Steve never claimed to be a pitcher. So it was a very competitive situation for me, just growing up in Tampa, where it was a hotbed of baseball players and a lot of baseball players that retired down there. So I honestly tried to soak in as much baseball, so to speak, as I could and met a lot of great guys along the way. And we were talking the other day, Danny, about going to. Did you ever go to any spring training? Well, yeah, I did. Went to many spring training games when the Cincinnati Reds were in Tampa. Their whole setup was out there off of Dale Mabry Boulevard, which everybody knows where that's at. And then it was quite ironic that first time I ever walked on a major league, minor league field, it was Al Lopez Field. [00:05:46] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:50] Speaker B: It was a great experience for me just to go and watch these guys play. And I got the bug real early. I mean, I knew this is what I love to watch, love to see, love to touch, and hopefully someday play. And it kind of worked. [00:06:07] Speaker A: You know, it's interesting you mentioned about that bug, because we have someone else here that got that similar bug in your son, Neil Walker. So, Neil, you heard your dad, seeing how he played professionally, was it pretty obvious that you were going to give baseball a try? Did you feel optimistic, Neil, that you might be drafted? And listen, of all teams that would draft, you happened to be the Pittsburgh Pirates. So was it dad kind of set the tone, so to speak, Neil, with the interest in baseball. [00:06:37] Speaker C: Well, let me paint a picture for you. I'm the youngest of four, and I have an older sister that's four years older than me and two older brothers that are six and eight years older than me. So at a very early age, I was given what's called the sink or swim mentality. So I knew regardless of what was being played in the front yard, in the driveway, basketball court, in the basement. I was going to have to either try to play with the big boys or I was going to have to go cry and go upstairs and complain to mom and dad that they were playing rough. And I found at an early age that I was going to do everything I could to play with the big boys. And that was a very valuable lesson for me at a young age because none of us ever got to see our dad play. They had children fairly late in their life. And like I said, my oldest brother is eight years older than I am. So it was one of those things where we obviously heard every story in the book, from the Clemente stories to my uncle and my father playing together, my mom's brother, obviously, and that's kind of how they met, to stories about some of the best players from the, that I have no idea about, mainly because I was born in 85. So I just know these as non firsthand basis. But I did know that when I got to about high school and I got to about 9th or 10th grade, and I decided that I was kind of the same way as what my dad was saying. I love to go down to Three River Stadium and watch Andy Van Slyke play and Barry Bonds and Bobby Bonilla. Those are my guys. I love going to see those guys play. We probably caught five, six, seven games this summer in Pittsburgh going to see that. And I would go with my brothers, I would go with my friends, I would go with my dad, my mom, all of them. We didn't care where we sat. We just wanted to be around the game of baseball. And fortunately, having somebody like my dad and my uncle that had the knowledge to know what it takes to get to the next level, but also an eye for talent. I figured by the time I was about a junior and I was bouncing around and doing some local showcases and playing on some better AAU teams in the western Pennsylvania area, I said, hey, I think I got a pretty good chance of playing at the next level. And that's when I started to look at some smaller schools. Both of my brothers went to junior college and then went on to George Washington and George Mason, both respectively. So I learned the value of just, number one, trying to find a place that I can get a good education if baseball didn't necessarily work, but number two, doing all that I can to maximize my potential as a baseball player. And so I was given an incredible, valuable lesson before I was even 17 years of age. And fast forward to going into my senior year. Of high school, I was lucky enough to play in a Team USA showcase in Joplin, Missouri. And me, as a kid from the northeast, especially in the early two thousand s, I was like, wow, this is amazing. I really didn't think I was going to make the team, but I was excited about getting more exposure because everywhere I'd gone before that was North Carolina and Virginia and New York and Ohio and some of these regional places. But you knew the hotbeds were Florida, Texas, California, all these places. So I went, and I was lucky enough to make the team and go on and play in the Pan Am games in Coraco, in the Netherlands Antilles, and we finished in second place. And that's when in my brain, I kind of said, you know what? I need to put all my focus into this. And so really, my last year and a half of high school, my junior year and going into my senior year, I had played football, I'd played basketball, I'd played baseball. All up to that point, I considered myself an athlete. I said, you know what? This is what I want to do. So in my senior year, I put all my focus and effort into making myself the best baseball player I could be. And come April, when the baseball season rolled around, I started to have more and more people come into games, and I was lucky enough to be talked about getting drafted in the first, second, or third round. And all of a sudden, toward the end of the season and late may going into June, they were into the draft time. They said, hey, you got a chance of being a first rounder. And my agent started to talk to some teams and look at this, and they said, yeah, your number looks like it might be between ten and 15, and what do you know? Number eleven that year happened to be the Pittsburgh Pirates. And so they had it easy for themselves, seeing me right in their backyard, 20 miles north of Pittsburgh. And it just so happened, come draft day, I had a pretty good idea that it was either going to be Baltimore, Pittsburgh, or St. Louis. And Pittsburgh was right sandwiched in between all three of those teams. And wouldn't you know it, number eleven comes around and we're sitting around a computer and they pick me. So it was, to this day, probably the coolest moment of my life, and especially being able to celebrate it with family and friends and all that stuff. And here we are almost 20 years later into my professional career, and I'm still hanging on. So I couldn't be more blessed and more appreciative of my journey. But obviously, we're going to get a little bit more into some of the antiquities between the Pittsburgh Pirates and Roberto Clemente and myself and my dad, as this interview goes. [00:12:15] Speaker A: Know, Neil, just listening to you right now, and the first thing that came to me when you mentioned being drafted in the first round, what are the chances that so many years prior, your own father was drafted in 1968 and drafted by the Baltimore Orioles, a team that you just mentioned? So I'd love to hear from your dad, Tom, the importance for every ball player, certainly from my own experience as a sports rider, is getting an opportunity to see that player in the minor leagues. So please, Tom, if you can, can you share some stories about playing in the minor leagues, but most importantly, your minor league manager, Cal Ripkin, Sr. Yeah. [00:13:03] Speaker B: Cal was a major influence in my development, not only as a baseball player, but as a man growing from a teenager. Not one of the greatest pitched game in the minor leagues in 1971, through a 15 inning no hitter, that actually changed the course of time for me in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and that vaulted me to the next level. From minor leagues to the major leagues. That was one of those things I'll never forget. I know I can't remember all the events, it's been quite a few years ago, but I knew that the minor league system had a tremendous influence on my life. And then having leadership like senior, you know, and then Cal Ripken, senior, and, you know, I can still see Belly. I can still see, you know, climbing fences at Clearwater, Florida, when his dad was trying to manage a game in the minor leagues. And it was just a hoot to watch how that whole thing went on, because I could really relate to it and my own guys. I mean, one thing Neil mentioned that he got out there and played with his brothers and his sister. She could hold her own, too, by the way. But one thing that I have to give them respect as well, because they never told Neil, you don't belong on the field with. Um, in fact, I remember a game where I was managing our second son, Sean. He had a baseball game. He was playing AAU baseball. And we were going up to a place called catanning. Well, three of the players had a flat tire, so we had eight guys. And Neil had ridden up there with me because he always wanted to take batting practice. He always wanted to throw. He wanted to do this, he wanted to do that. And if I didn't do know, I might as well not leave the ballpark. I might as well get the bucket of balls out and let them do it and let them run the bases and everything else. So as it turned out, these guys never showed up. So I went over to the other manager. I said, hey, buddy, you mind if I let my son, I've got another son here. You mind if I let him play right field? He says, are you sure he's all right, Neil, I think you're eight years old or nine years old or something, I don't know. But he trotted out there to right field and the next thing I know that the very first ball, there's a gown for second ball, there's a gown first, the balls hit out to Neil. Anyway, the guy says, oh, there's a little guy out there, I'm going to take a base on him. Well, what happened was he thought he was going to take a base. But anyway, Neil came up and threw a rock at the third base and the guy was out. [00:16:16] Speaker A: So wait a minute, here it is. Neil Walker, your son, your youngest son is only eight years old, runs out to right field. I think someone we know very well played right field. And you just said right now, Neil threw a rocket. I think we know someone who threw a lot of rockets throughout their 18 years in the major league. So, Neil, I guess now I want. [00:16:40] Speaker B: To flip it to you. [00:16:41] Speaker A: Why, Neil? [00:16:41] Speaker C: Why second base? [00:16:43] Speaker A: Why catch it? Why didn't you stay in right field? [00:16:46] Speaker C: Well, I was never considered a fleet footed athlete in any of the respective sports that I played, so I was relegated mostly to the infield. And really I started catching in 9th grade because a kid that ended up getting drafted by the White Sox and played at East Carolina university, that was a good friend of mine was a better shortstop than me. And so they said, can anybody catch? And I said, well, I guess I'm not going to play. Know, I can either play some outfield, but I'm not that fast, or I could play some third base or first base, but those are kind of boring. Why don't I try some catcher and fast forward? After four years of playing catcher, it turned out to be a pretty good idea because I was drafted as a switching catcher, which anybody that has an idea about baseball knows that that's somewhat of the holy grail. If you can defensively catch and hit a little bit for both sides of the plate, a lot of teams want you. And so that was kind of the card we played. But, yeah, outfield just never really spoke to me. But if I was a little bit faster, I might have stuck out there in one of the corners, but that just didn't happen. [00:17:58] Speaker B: The funny part of that, as the story worked out, the manager, I don't know where I had Neil plugged into the lineup there, but I said, you mind if I let him hit the manager? No, no, I don't want that liability. So Neil was ticked off that he didn't get the hit off the guy, but whatever, he got a lot of swings. [00:18:24] Speaker A: Know, Neil, your dad shared some amazing stories and someone who was a mentor during his period in the minor leagues. But Neil, certainly I love to hear, and for our talking 21 listeners, they know Neil Walker, the major league baseball player. But how instrumental was that period, the importance of the minor leagues for Neil Walker? Were there any players, coach or manager that also similar to your dad with Cal Ripkin Sr. Someone to this day you'll never forget? [00:18:56] Speaker C: Yeah, you know what? There's two guys that come to my mind and both of them I had in the very early going of my professional career, and I think that they were so influential because I had no idea what I was getting into initially. I had my heart set on going to college and kind of easing my way and hoping that I got an opportunity to play at the professional level. And things kind of expedited real quickly. And all of a sudden I'm drafted and I sign and I'm getting on a plane to go to FLOrIda to play in the GUlf coast league for BRadenton in the rookie level team. And I don't even know how to do my own happen. Things happen very quickly and I was fortunate to have some great people around me. But two guys that come to my mind that I really enjoyed their coaching style but also their philosophies on life and so on and so forth. And one is a GeNtLeman named Woody Hike, who I had as a manager in Bradenton. And the other was Tom Prince, who this past year was AA manager or before the season started, he was supposed to be the AA manager for the Detroit Tigers and was in the Pirates organization for a long, long time. Tom taught me a ton about catching, and Woody hikey taught me a lot about discipline and playing the game the right way. And he was a very old school manager. He probably was in his 70s when he was my manager as an 18 YeaR Old in 2004 in the GUlf Coast LeAGue. So very lucky to have people like that. And you run into SO MaNY people like that over the course of your career and you gravitate toward the good ones. And EverYBoDy seems to have the same story about the same guys because they're so good from an individual standpoint. But I know that those two guys helped kickstart my career because like I said, I had no idea what I was getting into with baseball. And luckily I had a brother that was involved with professional baseball at the time, and my dad, my uncle had gone through the ranks, and my sister at the time was dating a gentleman who you mentioned before, Don Kelly, who was playing in the minor leagues for the Tigers as well. So I had a lot of people in my corner, but to actually go through it on a day to day basis with people was different than bouncing things off of somebody that you're maybe just talking to on three or four times a week or whatever. It may so very, very lucky to have people Like TOm Prince and woody Hikey in the pirates organization when I was there EaRLY in my career. [00:21:25] Speaker A: So, Neil, here it is, and I definitely want to hear your dad's thoughts. But first, the question is starting the 2021 season, the minor league baseball system has been totally revamped and restructured. Mob has offered select teams, and I just found this out. They're actually called PDL's player development license. And many have criticized major league Baseball for literally decimating that level, along with the sudden departure of communities who literally have lost a minor league team, along with individuals who worked, possibly are retired for a number of years who worked at these ballparks. So right now it looks like each major league team has four minor league teams. When you heard about this, Neil, what were your immediate thoughts? What came to mind? [00:22:17] Speaker C: Yeah, you felt really sad. I felt really sad for these cities, these small cities. And I played most of my minor league career on the east coast and in the south for the most part, like I mentioned, Bradenton. I went from Bradenton, Williamsport, Pennsylvania, which is a small town, obviously, and then the following year went to Hickory, North Carolina, then Lynchburg, Virginia, all these small towns. But the common thread between all of them, whether it's the Carolina League or the Eastern League or the South Atlantic League, are so integral and so important to these teams, are so integral to these communities, and you felt really bad. And you're talking about basically cutting organizations, minor league teams in half, which basically means you're cutting the player pool in half. And you think about people like my brother who was drafted in the 40th round, and other kids that guys that I played with in the lower levels that made really good careers of themselves that were drafted in the 30th, 20th, 40th round. These guys aren't even going to get opportunities anymore. And if they do this, obviously the draft is going to be affected. You're not going to have 30 plus rounds of the draft anymore. So you feel really bad for not only the players because nine out of ten guys just want an opportunity. They just want to get into pro ball. They want to prove that they can play and they want to move up the ladder and hopefully get a chance at that dream of playing at the major leagues and also these small towns all across the United States that, number one, make some money off of the team, but also are ingrained into the community from the months of April until September. That's gone. It's completely gone. So you feel really bad about this situation. You don't feel like there's much that you can do outside of voicing your displeasure like I am right now. But at the same time, you really understand the hurt that these communities are going to go through when it's all said and done through this thing. [00:24:34] Speaker A: Tom, I'd love to hear your thoughts when you heard that this is what MLB was going to do, and sadly it's a done deal. It's already official that this is what's going to happen in 2021. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I heard how they had put this together and the theory behind it, and I like Neil, I came through an era where they had actually two drafts. They had a winter draft and a summer draft, and that's how I ended up being drafted in the first round. And I actually saw these kids Neil was talking about. I saw some kids come through that didn't even have a clue about thinking about playing in the major leagues. But all of a sudden they get drafted, picked up, and are working their way through the minor leagues. And I've got to tell you, there's a lot of opportunity out there for kids like this, young men. And honestly, we don't need fewer teams. We need more teams. We need the inner city athletes to come around and play the minority kids, which we don't have enough of them playing right now. And there's a lot that goes into. [00:25:54] Speaker A: Point, you know, something else? And I had, Tom, the opportunity to briefly, I don't know if it was last year or two years ago, Neil, you might recall, we were sitting in the dugout at City Field and we were talking analytics and now that is the new language and they call it data driven baseball. And Neil, I'd love to hear your thoughts after watching this year's World Series where it looks like the pitcher who was lights out and here it is, was removed from the game. And I'm basically calling it an analytically driven plan in place by the Tampa Bay Rays. And I love to hear your thoughts, Neil Walker and certainly Tom afterwards. But you know what, Neil? Let's ask your dad first. Let's go with. Know when you saw that game, Tom, what were your thoughts? [00:26:48] Speaker B: Well, I couldn't believe they were going to yank Snell out of the game. I mean, I was ridiculous the way he was throwing, and he was in charge of the would they could have left him out there for seven, eight, nine innings? And I feel confident that he could get through that. And giving you an idea of how opposite I am to analytics, and Cal Ripkin senior was opposed to it. That game I was telling you about, the 15 ending no hitter, I threw 193 pitches that night. [00:27:24] Speaker A: Excuse me. What was that? 193? [00:27:30] Speaker B: 193? Yeah. [00:27:31] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:27:36] Speaker B: I know. That's crazy, isn't it? And all I could see, because if you're throwing a no hitter, you're down at the end of the dugout. Nobody wants to talk to you except the trainer, and he wants to find out if you're still alive or you just hanging out at the end of the dugout, what's going on? So all of a sudden, I see Ripkin coming down to the end of the dugout, and he goes, hey, walk. Say, I got news for you. This is your last done. I said, no, no, Rip. I'm going to win this game. I'm going to absolutely win this game. And he kind of trotted off there, a little short guy he was, and he left the area. So with two outs, a guy named Mike Rhineback walks. And so the next guy up is Enos Cabel, and all of a sudden, it's three two. So Rhineback's running, and Enos hits one off the center field wall. We score a run. And then I ended up winning the game. I went out and punched out one guy. Pop up. Ground ball. Ground ball was Lee Lacey, by the way, and who I ended up playing with in winter ball one year. But as it turned out, I did win the game, and Ripken didn't get, you know, analytics worked in my direction that night, and it's totally driven by analytics right now. And you've got a new group of men running the general managerships of ball clubs. Totally. The mentality is totally different now than it was even 15 years ago. [00:29:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I love to hear your thoughts, Neil. [00:29:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:21] Speaker C: It's interesting. On a day to day basis, you don't really understand, I guess, totally, why lineups look the way they do or moves are made the way they are. But when you start to have more conversations with people and start to understand that there's a few more MIT and Harvard grabs. That's zero disrespect toward anybody that has ever gone to those schools. But there's more and more of those types in major league locker rooms and in major league organizations than there are 810 years ago. It was baseball people. It was people that have been around the game for a long, long time. Well, that's turned a corner and that's turned a page. And I don't think it's bad. I think it's different. I think it's something that needs to be embraced. But at the same time, you can't fully grasp everything that you see in statistics. You have to understand the player. You have to understand the mindset, you have to understand players hearts. You have to understand that a guy can get through, the pitcher can get through the order the third time, regardless of whether he's at 50 pitches or 95 pitches, whether he's been hit hard and given up one hit or not hit hard and given up five runs. I mean, there's so many things that go into a singular game of baseball that, of course, over the long haul, over 100 of these two games, you're going to have some data and statistics that pop out more than others. And I think it's very valuable to have that information in your back pocket. But when push comes to shove and you have a guy like snow in the World Series and nobody sniffed him two times to the order, and you say, oh, let's get ahead of this thing before it gets to a bad place, well, that's sometimes when analytics can kind of nip you in the butt. So I know as a player in his 30s right now that I should be somebody that's, that's banging down the door to get less analytics involved in baseball. Because basically, as soon as you hit 31, 32 in baseball right now, the analytics are telling you that you can't play the game anymore. And as many of us know and many that have been in locker rooms and been around valuable veterans, whether they've been an everyday player or a bench player or a reliever, there's a lot of value to be those guys that are getting, you hope that eventually it comes to a happy medium and guys are getting their due. But the organizations and the analytics are taking both sides of it, the extreme baseball side of it, and the extreme data driven side of it, and meshing it together and creating an environment of baseball that's maximizing the game. [00:32:22] Speaker A: And interesting that you also mentioned to have that balance. And I think that's something that just came out maybe last month with Theo Epstein of the Chicago Cubs, which actually, he has now stepped away. But he actually brought that out with the standpoint that, yes, he truly embraced it with the Red Sox and with the Chicago Cubs. But I think to hear an executive pretty much to say, you know what? Maybe we have to really now get back to the table and say how we could balance out both analytics and old school baseball. So to know, Tom, talking about teammates, and we talked about that earlier, there were two teammates of yours who actually played the outfield or remarkable players in their own right. Interesting. One particular player goes off to manage for two major league baseball teams, and another one is, and both of them were all stars. But I thought it was interesting that one of the two that were for your former teammates actually won the Roberto Clemente award in 1982. So talk to me about Felipe Alu of the Alu brothers, who obviously are literally a legacy, a dynasty. Felipe's son is the manager of the new York Mets. So talk to me about Felipe Alu, what you learned from him, what you saw from afar, being teammates, along with Ken Singleton as well. [00:33:50] Speaker B: Yeah, they were great guys. Obviously, Kenny, what a pure mean. He had incredible talent, and I think it was a lot of fun to watch him play. He was a good outfielder. He had a body that was beyond his years in strength and in conditioning. And I asked him one day, I said, man, you're hummed up there, man. You're looking good. How much weights do you leave here and go lift weights or something? He says, I never touch a weight. He was just blessed with that body. [00:34:31] Speaker A: The physique. Yeah, the physique. [00:34:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, how'd you do that, man? It ain't working for me, but it is for you. But then, know, it was really strange to watch him. I don't know what year it was, but he was playing. I was pitching against me, hits a home run off of me. Guys wouldn't even talk to me for a week. What do you mean, you gave up a home run to Felipe? But incredible. You know, one thing about him, he could work with latin players. He could work with the american players very well, and they all respected him so much that he made it fun to play for him. He really did. [00:35:20] Speaker A: You really heard that so often about Felipe Alu. And I think that's the one thing, the temperament that now you see with his son, Luis Rojas, manager of the New York Mets. So, Neil, here it is. You played seven seasons with the Pirates. Playing in a city, surely your hometown, was an absolute dream come true, experiencing memorable moments, consecutive playoffs there in Pittsburgh, walk off homer, silver slugger in 2014. But guess what? On April 1, 2011, you hit a grand slam on opening day at PnC park, and you joined, guess who, Roberto Clemente, as the only Pirates player to accomplish that unbelievable feat. But, Neil, there's something else here it is, and it happened in 2014, and it was on Roberto Clemente Day. So, Neil, for our talking 21 listeners, please tell us what happened on Roberto Clemente Day in 2014. [00:36:24] Speaker C: Yeah, just you bringing that up gives me goosebumps because, and I don't know the exact date, it was September of 2014. We were playing the Boston Red Sox. Clay Buckholtz was pitching that night. We were working our way towards our second straight postseason appearance every year with the Pirates. Obviously, on Clemente Day, we as a team would go to a local elementary school or local inner city school with Vera, with Luis, with whoever was available, with junior, whoever was available. And we know basically tell Roberto's story, but also basically do what Roberto would do when he was playing here was just be philanthropic and be part of the community and help people understand that there's bigger things than sports, there's bigger things than baseball, there's much more out there. And this particular year, 2014, in September, I was sitting on 20 home runs. It was on Roberto Clemente Day. Vera and I think Vera and Luis were in the stands that day because they were in the dugout. I'm not sure if junior was there or not, but I know that they were there because the hair would raise up on my arms every time I would see them because of the circumstances. But they were in the dugout before the game. And it didn't really strike me that it was Clemente day and this and that, and every day that I would run out. And for people that aren't familiar with PNC park, in right field is a 20 1ft wall. And obviously that's very symbolic, but it's also something that for seven years, when I would run out of the dugout from third base to second base, I would run directly toward that wall. So every time I would go out there, I would see the little emblem on the upper left hand corner of the 20 1ft wall that came down in the bout right center field. And that particular night, and in my third or fourth at bat, I'm hitting left handed. I hit a ball out there, and I'm not telling you it went over the 20 1ft wall by about that much. And I'm trotting around the bases and I hit second base. And all of a sudden, I think, holy crap, that's my 21st home run on Roberto Clemente day. And that was the most home runs that I'd hit in my career at that point. And I get back in the dugout, and dudes are looking at me like, hey, this is really weird. This is cryptic. I obviously believe in a higher power. I believe in a lot of things, but I believe that was very blessed as a baseball player, but I was very blessed as somebody in the Pittsburgh community and organization that understood Roberto a little bit more than most of the players that have come through there, simply because I knew his backstory. And obviously, I never got to see him play because I was born in 85, but through my dad. [00:39:34] Speaker B: Let me add one more thing to the story. We went to every home game, not all the road games. We went to all the road game, our home games. Anyway, as fate was having, as Anil said, he was stuck on 20 for a while. So I had this set of glasses, number 21 glasses, cocktail glasses. So I went out in the yard, cut a gardenia flower and put it in one of those glasses, and I came back in the house and told my wife. I said, something good is going to happen tonight. And she thought I was nuts putting a gardenia in a number 21 glass. Well, guess what happened? He hits the home run on Roberto. [00:40:22] Speaker A: Clemente day, and you looked at your wife and said, I'm not nuts. [00:40:26] Speaker B: No, I'm not nuts, honey. I'm just telling you. I knew this was, something was going to happen. What a night that was. I'll never forget that. [00:40:35] Speaker A: Well, you know, Tom, in the states it's been well documented, and especially the listeners, the talking 21 listeners and those who are familiar with the story that you played actually in the winter league in Puerto Rico in 1972. So here it is. You split time with the San Juan team and the Caguas team in 1972. So give me what was your overall first impressions of Roberto Clemente Walker? [00:41:09] Speaker B: That was kind of strange because he and I shared the same name is Robert Thomas Walker, and he is Roberto Clemente Walker. I know that he was bigger than life to me. I got to play one year. He was playing his last year, obviously, and I was my first year. And going into that year, I played winterball in 1971, and that's obviously how I got to meet the man. I was single. I wasn't going back to the States for Christmas. And as you know, they have a week off between Christmas and New Year's. You just shut down baseball. Well, Nicaragua had the earthquake and he went into his philanthropic mode, and he was going to get some goods to Nicaragua. Well, how it worked out was he had heard that the goods were not getting to the right people, and the leadership in Nicaragua were kind of managing all the stuff coming in. Well, he wasn't real happy with that. And that's why he ended up asking two brothers that owned that airplane. I don't know if people realize that, but the pilot and the co pilot were brothers. And then Roberto had a seat on the plane, and I never forget it, his briefcase. And then he had enlisted two young puerto rican gentlemen, young men, to help load and unload the plane. And that was literally all the room that was left. And I asked him, I told him, I said, roberta, I want to go with you. I don't have anything to do tonight. I want to go to Nicaragua and unload the plane. We'll be back. Well, he was quick to say, no, you're not going. We have no room on the plane for you. And to kind of think about the moment they have daylight savings time in Puerto Rico, just like we do here in the States. Those getting dark at 05:00 and I would say this was probably between four and 430 when he and I had that conversation. And he said, gringo party thrill you, bomino, and went, oh, man, I don't really want to leave. But I went back, I got in my car, said goodbye to him, and it was just a normal day around loading an airplane. There wasn't a fanfare, there wasn't a lot of people. It was just a normal work day, loading that plane. And there really was no more room in that plane. And that plane should have never taken off. That plane had issues sitting on the ground. And he said, no, we're going to take this plane. And I'll never forget, I went back to the apartment I was staying in, the Condado section, which, you know, well, where that's at. And anyway, I went back, got parked the car, I was going to get a shower and go get something to eat, whatever go through you. And a young lady heard me coming down the hallway. She ran outside and she said, did you hear about Roberto? I said, no, I just left him an hour or so ago. And she said, his plane crashed off the coast of Verde, where the airport. I said, no, no, that can't be right. And unfortunately, it was, you know, it was moments. I'll never know. For days, people were lined up on the beach, the ocean, waiting for him to come out of the water, like he was going to walk right out of the water and be normal. Roberto, including Manny Senguilla. And of course, we all know that that didn't happen. And I remember several things going from that point. Every car, taxicaber car, had a handkerchief attached to the radio antenna, every car. And then we had the pirates fielded an airplane and flew it down to San Juan, and they had a little service, which Steve Blass, he gave the. He did, yes. Little tiny church. But things I'll never forget, obviously, I'll never forget. [00:46:10] Speaker A: Know, Tom, I'd love, because there's not too many people that can say it's one thing Roberto the baseball player, but Roberto the manager. What can you tell me of your own observations of seeing? I know you said Roberto played part time. He was a player in the winter leagues, but also he managed. What could you tell me about Roberto? Manager? And secondly, here it is. We know what he did December 31, a humanitarian mission. Did you see that in Roberto prior to the accident, where Roberto would know, let's just say little tidbits with the players, helping them, that they were struggling, maybe interacting with the fans there. But did you see those attributes out of Roberto? [00:46:58] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I can remember very clearly one of my sons, Sean, his godparents are Puerto Ricans, and they still live on the island. And one thing, talking to my friend, he would tell me stories of know, how effective he was with the government and with the people of, you know, looking at gathering goods to send to Nicaragua. He got on the radio and asked the puerto rican people to please bring goods down to the stadium. And it was like magic. His leadership was so strong. We had so much stuff down there. You can't imagine how many people dropped off goods. It reminds me of what's going on in our country right now with COVID people giving money or giving food and hoping it gets to somebody that really needs it. But that's what he was all about. [00:48:09] Speaker A: Here it is. You were mentioning some words in Spanish. First of all, you say gringo, right? So we all know what that means. But I'm listening to your accent there, Tom. So tell me right now, tell our talking 21 listeners who are Spanish speaking and are familiar with some of the words of our language. Was there anything, a phrase or word that you picked up there on the island during your time in the winter? [00:48:30] Speaker B: Leaks? [00:48:31] Speaker C: No. [00:48:31] Speaker B: Well, the first spanish word that you probably shouldn't be throwing around often is the word coney. Yeah. [00:48:44] Speaker A: Well, for our listeners, there's swear words that means, damn, I understand. You strike out, you're going to say that. [00:48:56] Speaker B: Yeah, throw your ball. [00:48:58] Speaker A: Hey, Tom, when you throw a ball. [00:49:00] Speaker B: And they hit it out the ballpark. [00:49:01] Speaker A: That might come out of your mouth, right? [00:49:09] Speaker B: Playing in Puerto Rico, you learn a word or two, and playing in Montreal, you do the same thing. You learn a word or two that might get you in trouble. I tried to stay away from that as much as possible. That was not one of the higher moments that I. Yeah, well, you know. [00:49:23] Speaker A: Neil, here it is, 2020. Sadly, so many lives lost. I've known people that are affected with COVID certainly in the Walker household. I'm sure friends or maybe acquaintances or someone that you've known, sadly, have contracted this particular deadly virus. But 2020, in the shortened season, Neil, you had an opportunity on September 9, September 10, which actually, I believe the Phillies played the following day. Their Roberto Clemente day was on September 10. But here it is, Neil, you had an opportunity to wear a particular number, and it was hanging in your locker. So please, Neil, for our talking 21 listeners, tell me what that was like to look at that number that was hanging in your locker. [00:50:15] Speaker C: Yeah, like you said, September 10 was my birthday. We're in Miami. We had seven games in five day series because earlier on in the season, the schedule was kind of messed up from COVID And about a week before Clemente Day, I remember asking one of the clubbies, I said, hey, are we doing Clemente day this year? Just hoping that nothing had changed? And they said, yeah, we're going to do it. We're not going to do it home. We're going to do it in Miami. We have an off day, the day that everybody's doing it, but we're going to do it the following day on Friday, I believe it was. And I said, well, what are we allowed to do? Because in the past, you could wear an armband that says 21. You could wear something to honor the number or Roberto. And they said, actually, this year, if you'd like to wear the number 21 on your back, you can do so. And I said, are you kidding me? Yeah, absolutely. I want to do that. Whatever I can do to do it, please, let's do it. And I get to the ballpark on September 9, and sitting in my locker, there is the number 21. And I was like, this is incredible. I can't think of a better way to honor this man. You know what? On that same note, Danny, you wouldn't believe. And I know I've had this conversation with you, and you've had this conversation on this podcast, and the amount of people and the amount of ball players, and not just the latin players that really would love to see the number 21 retired league wide is incredible. And to be honest with you, not a lot of guys in my locker room with the Phillies knew that you could wear 21 on your back that day. And a lot of them were upset because they said, whoa, hold on, how did you do this? And I said, well, about three or four days ago, I let them know I wanted to do something for the day. And they said, the league said you could wear the jersey on that day. And they were running to the clubhouse guy going, hey, can I get a 21 jersey? And it was too late to do that for that particular night. But I hope this is a trend in the right direction, because obviously you know how I feel, and everybody that's involved with baseball knows how I feel and the latin ball players feel, but it's not just that, it's everybody. People are finally understanding the impact that this man had on not just the game of baseball, but the humanitarian side, the philanthropic side. And I think it's just a matter of time. And I hope it's this year, and if it's not this year, I hope it's the following year. I hope that finally the number 21 will be completely retired. But I guess time will tell. [00:53:09] Speaker A: If I may ask, tom, when you knew that, and I'm sure when Neil called you or text you and said, dad, I'm wearing number 21, what are your thoughts when Neil communicated that with you? [00:53:19] Speaker B: Well, you don't know what's going to happen after that. You get the man's jersey on you and anything's possible. But I was thrilled, absolutely thrilled. One thing about the current organization here, our pirate alumni organization, which you're familiar with, there's a big push for the number 21 to be retired, not only with the Pirates, that is a retired number, but also they're going to be a major push, and it's going to start here. Steve Blass is involved with it. I'm involved with it. I will do all I can to help get that number retired, but I'd love to see it. I think certainly the latin players, he is such a form of leadership for them. I did a speaking engagement down in Miami. It's been four or five years ago, and many great players, latin players, came down there to do some clinics in honor of Roberto. And they asked me to tell the story of the last moment in time where a baseball player, major league player, had contact with Roberto. And I told that story. And honestly, I'll tell you what, there were a lot of major league baseball players with tears in their eyes at that point, including this old, you know, for Neil on that given day, to be able to wear Roberto's number is just an honor. I mean, it's an honor. It really. [00:55:04] Speaker A: Know something that Neil mentioned earlier. Tom and I like to hear your thoughts as well. And we could kind of just go back and forth. Here it is. Both of you had the opportunity to become very close to the Clemente family. Sadly, last November 2019, we lost. And I always call her Donia. Vera Clemente. I always called her Donia. And here it is. I got a chance to know her. I had an amazing relationship for 17 years. But I like to know, tom, when you shared that story with her and when Neil had time to speak with both Luis, Roberto Jr. Enrique, and, you know, tom, when she heard that come directly from you, what talk about that relationship, when maybe it was just you and Mrs. Clemente, you and Mrs. Vera Clemente together alone in a dugout or in the stands. I'd love to hear any of your recollections of when you got an opportunity. [00:56:05] Speaker B: To sit down with, you know, I went back off the podium, sat down, and I was kind of at an angle where I could see Luis Jr. And I can't remember if our other son was there or not. I don't think so. But I did see Vera, and she raised her finger up, her left first finger and raised it up. And I went, wow. So after the evening was over to Carol, and I went over to see her and say hello to her, and she just kind of, like, grabbed me, just put her arms around me and said, I feel so fortunate that you were there with Roberto. And I'm thinking, man, this is really crazy. [00:57:00] Speaker A: Wow. [00:57:01] Speaker B: I was 23 years old and going through an experience like this and having someone like Vera from Carolina, Puerto Rico. [00:57:13] Speaker A: I like the way you said that. Carolina, I like. [00:57:19] Speaker B: So I stayed in touch. I see every chance I get. I see junior around town. He's the most obvious Clemente here, and I've chatted with him a number of times. So, yeah, it was a special moment for. [00:57:40] Speaker A: Sure. Sure. And, Neil, the one tribute that I've always loved hearing from you before we met, our relationship. Now Neil is going into our 9th year that we've known each other, but here it is that every time when you would stand at second base as a member of the Pittsburgh Pirates and you would have a moment of silence, I believe, and pretty much, in essence, know, thank you, Roberto, that my dad, I know we lost you but that my father wasn't on that plane because I wouldn't exist. I would have never had the opportunity to play. But I do owe you my life. And that's something you have said often, Neil. [00:58:23] Speaker C: Yeah. And the one thing that always strikes me is that as a Pittsburgh pirate, when we would have the national anthem before the game, a lot of times you would be facing center field and kind of left center field where the flag would be standing, but at the same time that 20 1ft, number 21 emblem wall is right there in your face. So I would always be kind of snapped back to reality into the understanding that I wouldn't exist were it not for. And you know, had he said, you know, any, anybody that's helping load this plane, jump on a box on here, we're going to take a couple hour trip to Nicaragua. We're going to drop this stuff off and come back and all will be. And fortunately for myself and for a lot of people involved in that particular moment in time, that wasn't the case. And unfortunately for him and the several people on that plane, they lost their lives that day. But I always really enjoyed Clemente day every year. When you knew that Vera and the boys were coming to town and you were going to be doing something to impact the community and you would see them in the dugout. And I was always tried to be respectful of them and how many different directions they got pulled when they were in the pirates community and presence per se. But I would always try to at least reach out to Vera when she was in the dugout and give her a hug and just say thank you. And I don't know if she understood half of what I meant by saying thank you, but obviously I do. And any chance I got to tell her thank you, I tried to take advantage of that. [01:00:26] Speaker A: And guys, before we wrap up for our talking 21 listeners, because this truly was an amazing conversation. Neil, I'm going to start with you. Neil, you're sitting down with the commissioner of major league Baseball. In a few words, besides the obvious, what are you saying to him about what we said earlier about retiring? Clemente's number few words, Neil, it's a no brainer. [01:00:54] Speaker C: There are very few players that universally, from the whatever, that deserve to be honored in a certain way. And obviously Jackie Robinson is one of them and rightfully so. And I think Roberto Clemente is right there along with. I just, I hope that cooler heads will prevail, per know. I know that it's not for any lack of trying, per se, but I hope that he'll come around and say, you know what? This is a man that we need to honor and not down the road. This is well overdue. This needs to happen now. And anybody that's wearing 21, sorry, but this is done. I don't know. That's obviously not very few words, Danny, I'm sorry, but I hope that this will happen sooner rather than later. And I think that it will. [01:01:59] Speaker A: Sounds good. Sounds good. So, Tom, we heard from your son with regards to if he had a few moments with the commissioner of major league Baseball. I'd love to hear your thoughts on why Roberto Clemente's number should be retired. [01:02:14] Speaker B: Well, I think of all things, Roberto brings leadership to the latin players and to the american players that we haven't seen before. If you ask a fellow like Brooks Robinson, who's the greatest player you've ever seen, he would tell you Roberto Clemente. And they played in at least two World Series games that I remember. But there was so much, Roberto brought so much more than baseball to the game of baseball. He brought a form of leadership that we've never seen before. He brought attitude from all the players know it's all about giving back. It's all about helping someone else that has a greater need than you. And I know there's some wonderful statements out there that he made that, as Neil could tell you, we have that on the wall in our basement at home. And every time I go down there, I get to look and read it. But there's no question in my mind that if put together properly, and the senior group of gentlemen and former baseball players, we can get this done. We can get this done. And just to open ears people that want to listen for all the right reasons, we can get Roberto, his number, retired as one of the greatest baseball players that ever lived, with many more directions than just being able to play baseball. That's what I would tell them. [01:03:58] Speaker A: And Neil and Tom Walker, I can't thank you guys enough. This truly was an amazing time with you on the talking 21 podcast and on behalf of the entire crew, I can't thank you guys enough. I know we had a little slight difficulty there, but Neil, I think for the most part, we got some amazing stories. And Tom, I'm sure we're going to have a lot more conversations when I can't catch up with your son. So just. Thanks so much, guys. [01:04:25] Speaker B: Well, come to Pittsburgh. I'll be at the ballpark once they let us go back in. [01:04:33] Speaker A: Least, I come at least twice a year to PNC park. It's an amazing ballpark. It really is my favorite ballpark and certainly look forward to sitting there with you along with your wife. And it's just, we have a good time. [01:04:49] Speaker B: You bet you. [01:04:50] Speaker A: Amen. Tom Walker, amen. And again, I can't thank you guys enough. On behalf of the talking 21 crew, thanks for joining us. [01:05:00] Speaker B: You bet. [01:05:01] Speaker C: You got it, Danny. Thank you very much. [01:05:04] Speaker A: Thanks so much, Tom and Neil Walker. This was a lot of fun, and I'm certain our listeners will enjoy this latest episode. Hearing some amazing stories from two generations of baseball puts everything into perspective on where America's pastime is today. But most importantly, to see Clemente's impact and relevance in not only today's players, but certainly in the Walker's household as well. Wearing the number 21 was quite an honor for Neil, the number once worn by his father's manager in the puerto rican Winter league and of course, his friend. We hope to one day see his iconic number finally retired throughout the entire league. Until our next episode, many thanks for listening, and be sure to follow us on Twitter and on Instagram at talking 21 podcast for all the latest information about our episode drops. And if you're enjoying the show, please be sure to subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcast. And a special thank you to our executive producer rasquevara and our coproducer, Senor Basil. Tune in next time for our continued conversation about the great one. And as always, this is your host, Danny Torres, and be sure to follow me on Twitter at Danny T 21.